ffutures: (Default)
ffutures ([personal profile] ffutures) wrote2007-07-22 09:39 am

PDA possibilities

I've been using an iPaq for about three months now and I am getting nowhere with handwriting recognition - I still have to enter some letters three or four times before it will work, and it doesn't seem to be showing an sign of improving. This may be because I'm left handed, but I've tried drawing letters lots of different ways and none of it seems to help.

I've tried an external keyboard, but while it worked it was just another thing to carry and / or lose, and it was so wobbly that it would be impractical on a train journey or anywhere crowded, the sort of places where I'd want to use a PDA rather than a laptop.

So I think I'm going to have to look at PDAs with proper keyboards again.

What I had before was a Psion Revo, which was never particularly reliable and died on me completely in the end. Also had way too little storage, and no easy route to Mac compatibility. I might consider Psion again but it would take some convincing.

What I think I want this time is something with enough memory and speed to run a decent software suite, e.g. Pocket Windows CE with its word processor etc., plus a reasonable amount of additional software available including the odd game or two, ebook reader, etc.. Good battery life is essential, colour isn't but would be nice. USB file transfer, PC and Mac compatibility, non-proprietary storage e.g. SD card or similar, not memory cards that only one company makes and cost a fortune. WiFi and Bluetooth are possibly useful but again not essential, especially if they can be added as a card or something, and I DON'T want a mobile phone.

The big thing is that the keyboard and screen need to be at least Psion sized - I can't see writing seriously on a Blackberry or similar. I also don't want to spend a fortune.

What I've looked at a few times is the HP Jornada 720 - they come up on eBay fairly often, usually selling around £70-80. I could just about afford that if it's OK, but I don't want an expensive mistake, and I don't know a huge amount about them.

So... Any suggestions, or any alternatives I should look at? Anyone used the Jornada?
ext_58972: Mad! (Default)

[identity profile] autopope.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 11:10 am (UTC)(link)
I have a strong suggestion for you: WAIT.

Because what you're really asking for is a machine suitable for writing on. And what's coming soon includes ...

Asus Eee

Palm Foleo

Kohjinsha SA1 (Warning: overpriced rip-off vendor -- they're a lot cheaper elsewhere if you look around)

...

What all these gizmos have in common is that they weigh less than 1Kg, are designed to be used primarily with a keyboard, have wifi and bluetooth ... and real operating systems. The Palm Foleo is like a Linux-based Psion Netbook, only at half the price (probably 300 quid when they launch in the UK). The Asus Eee is pitched at an entry-level price around US $300 (i.e. 150 quid), although its keyboard and screen are worse. The Kohjinsha is available now, although an improved model is on the way, and starts at £340 (plus import fees) for one with a 40Gb hard drive, Windows XP, and no touch sensor on the screen.

All of these have better screens and much more storage than Psion ever did (except on the high end Netbook), the keyboards are bigger, but they nevertheless weigh less than 1Kg and are about the size of a hardback, i.e. at the really-tiny end of laptopdom, rather than the bloated-biggest end of PDA dom. If you think of the old Toshiba Libretto, only done right, these are the successors. And the most expensive one (the Kohjinsha) can be had new for 400 quid including VAT and shipping from Japan; the others are threatening to undercut the bottom end of the laptop market.

Wait a bit longer and Quanta will eventually begin shipping the commercial version of the XO1 OLPC, but it probably won't be any cheaper than the Eee.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 12:20 pm (UTC)(link)
All of those unfortunately sound a lot bigger than what I want - bear in mind that I mostly travel around on a motorbike, something like that is going to end up in the side bags or not carried at all. I'm really after something useful enough and small enough to carry everywhere I go every day, which so far the iPaq isn't.

[identity profile] raygungothic.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 12:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks for posting this! It may not suit [livejournal.com profile] ffutures but that Foleo sounds like what I've been looking for. Can't wait to see if it lives up to its promises.
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[identity profile] uninvitedcat.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 11:16 am (UTC)(link)
I'm completely ignorant in these matters, but mR is far more informed. He's suggested that you may like to spend some time looking at the clove website (http://www.clove.co.uk/category.aspx?category=AA8618D9-A7F2-4178-B02C-DA2BE7D96C3B) to get a good overview of what's available at the moment.

I know mR was seriously considering the Acer N311 a couple of of weeks ago, but while it has the largest PDA screen, it doesn't have an attached keyboard (there's a bluetooth one available as an accessory though).

Incidentally, a left-handed friend of mR's bought a Tapwave Zodiac 2, (only available second hand now) and has had no problems with the Graffiti handwriting input.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)
The basic problem I have with writing is that I greatly prefer to type - even if recognition with Graffiti is a hell of a lot better, I would really prefer to press keys. If I have to think about the shape of the letters for a handwriting recognition program I lose the flow of the words.

I DON'T want a mobile phone.

[identity profile] heliograph.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 03:20 pm (UTC)(link)
That's crazy talk. You not only want an iPhone, you NEED one. You NEEDS your precious!

I used a Jornada when it first came out (which we pronounced "Hor-nada") but that was like a million years ago. It was the one with the keyboard. It didn't suck (I could use the keyboard with my stubby fingers) but I wasn't inspired to buy one... and this was back when I didn't have any spending brakes. While battery life was originally good, but I imagine after almost ten years the battery life is nearly nil in the surviving units.

Re: I DON'T want a mobile phone.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 03:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah right. No keyboard, just a touch sceen with an alphabetic pad. Got that on the iPaq, it's more of a pain than the handwriting recognition. Having said that, if I wanted a mobile phone my choice would be a lot better, and I could probably buy something with a mini keyboard for not much more than the cost of any other phone, but I want to make calls on the move once or twice a year at most, and I'm damned if I'm going to pay a monthly rental fee for that.

There seem to be little cottage industries that specialise in weird battery replacements, so I don't see that as an insuperable problem.

[identity profile] fenchurche.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I had a Jornada for years and LOVED it. It's pretty much ancient technology these days, but nothing beats that form factor. The keyboard is tiny, but quite usable, and it had a PCMCIA slot for a wireless card, so I was able to surf the internet on it. It's also got a tiny built-in modem, so you can use it for dial-up, if you have to. Technically, I still have mine, because I absolutely could not bear to get rid of it, but I never use it anymore.

It probably wouldn't work for what you're looking for, but I ended up replacing it with a Fujitsu Lifebook P1000 (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1829739,00.asp), which is possibly the world's tiniest laptop... and has a touch-screen (an absolute must for me). Not the sort of thing you can fit into a pocket (although the Jornada is a bit bulky for that, as well), but I can stick it in my purse without difficulty (um, although that probably wouldn't be as good a solution for you. ;-) It's getting a bit ancient now, too, so I'm saving my pennies for the Fujitsu Lifebook P1610 (http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610), which is the modern successor to my old laptop.

At any rate, if you don't mind it being a bit older and a bit slower, then the Jornada would probably work really well for you. Oh, but the other thing to keep in mind is that the Jornada does not have a USB connection, it uses a serial cable to talk to your computer.

[identity profile] fenchurche.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Looking over some of your replies, I should add that the Lifebook probably *is* small enough for you to easily stick in your sidebags, and it's also a pretty hearty little laptop. Mine went through the spin cycle in my car when we had our accident a year and a half ago (we rolled four times and it got thrown all around the cab of the car) with the only damage being a small crack in the casing.

The biggest issue for you would probably be the price, since they're not exactly cheap... but I think they're well worth the money, if you're looking for a small, easily transportable fully-functioning laptop.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Not really - anything larger than pocket sized and I really might as well not bother. I'd still be using the Psion if it hadn't died on me, that wasn't ideal because of the small memory etc. but it's about the size I want to carry.

[identity profile] lawbag.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 04:49 pm (UTC)(link)
O2 and Orange both had PDA Smart phones which I have both used. They both have keyboards built in, but depends whether you want mobile phone too. They both can be used SIM card free though and you might spy them on ebay cheap.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
What sort of WP etc. software do they have? I've never owned a mobile phone - my life-style just doesn't seem to need one - so I really have no idea about this stuff.

[identity profile] heliograph.livejournal.com 2007-07-22 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
iiiiiiPhoooooooone!

But more seriously, I've always assumed the Euro phone market was way better than ours, but there are plenty of phones available that have full keyboards and run productivity software. Even if you don't use the phone part, you've still got fast network connectivity where-ever you go.

The Nokia E90 is nice: http://www.nokia.co.uk/A4353377
It folds open to reveal a bigger screen and full keyboard. It is vaguely Jornada-like.

The Nokia E70 has a nifty fold open split keyboard (half on one side, screen in middle, half on the other), so it is handy and compact, but the screen is smaller than the E90's.

I have a friend that works at Nokia, so that's why those are both of my examples. I dunno what rates/etc are like over there, but in the US the cos of the phone is subsidized by the plan.

Again, it is hard to walk through any shopping area without being assaulted by cell phone salesmen, but even if that isn't so over there it should be easy to find places where you can try out these devices.

[identity profile] w00hoo.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 09:07 am (UTC)(link)
Definitely if the phone itself does the job that you want it to do, and it's been out a while (6 months+) you should be able to find it on Ebay at a reasonable price. I'm pretty sure it'll work without a SIM in it, but if it does need one you can pick one up for any network from between £0 & £5 as a Pay as you go. I've got an old phone with an Orange Pay as you go SIM in it that I haven't put money on for over a year. It has around a tenner on it. Every so often I turn it on and use the Orange 2 for 1 film offer to get a free cinema ticket. It's saved me around 20 quid so far. I've a friend works as a programmer for Nokia and gets to play with all the toys, I'll dig out his email address and see if he has any suggestions from the last two years. There's definitely a Windows compatible operating system (?Opera?) on some of them and you generally have the option of Bluetooth, IR and custom USB cable connectivity. The one biggie might be memory capacity, the cards aren't generic and only go up to a gig or two. Having said that I think there are enough around that they may not be silly money.

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 05:15 pm (UTC)(link)
The E90 definitely looks worth considering - thanks for the pointer.

[identity profile] lawbag.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 10:59 am (UTC)(link)
They have a mini version of Windows, and run a Mobile Word and Mobile Excel programs which are compatible (via the link cable that comes with the device) with your proper Windows programs.

With the keyboard you are able to clatter out a reasonable rate of letters, while they are no laptop, its easier to whip out a large phone than a bulky laptop.

[identity profile] soren-nyrond.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 01:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Bought iPaq, mostly because [livejournal.com profile] smallship1 had PDAs lying round and they looked fun.

Have worst handwriting in world, but have trained recopgniser to be about 75% accurate. Would almost like to recommend perseverance, but respect you too much to be so blunt. Do not think left-handedness an issue, based on my attempts -- possibly you need a bigger whip to keep the PDA obedient.

Otherwise, all the best in seeking an alternative.

Soren the Lurker

[identity profile] ffutures.livejournal.com 2007-07-23 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)
The problem is that if I was just making a note e.g. addresses I could maybe live with the handwriting recognition or the "press the letter" thing. But I want to write on the move, and that needs something more like a real keyboard.