(no subject)

[ffutures]

While I really like the HP MiniNote as a computer, the sad fact is that I am having real problems getting SUSE linux to do the things I want since I appear not to have the linux mindset. I'm beginning to think that Linux was written by Timelords or something, and that "Simply," "just" and "all you need do" are Linux jargon for "it doesn't work for puny humans but we're not going to tell you the real way to do it because your head would explode." I definitely want to keep the computer, but I think I may have to look at other options.

A couple of people have suggested that Ubuntu is a better linux for people like me who aren't linux experts. That has the advantage of being free, and I was hoping to learn more about linux, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I have more immediate priorities than struggling to learn linux since it won'd advance my career or anything.

A more realistic (in terms of my abilities) solution might be to install Windows XP; HP's web site now has the drivers the MiniNote needs. Amongst other pluses, there are a lot of accessories that will only work with Windows, such as dedicated microscope cameras, TV tuner cards, etc. But of course for this I'd need a legit copy of Windows and COA, and that costs money. You can get the OEM version of XP service pack 1 for £20, but I'd really hate to try this with anything less than SP3, and that's more like £60.

So, a little poll...

[Poll #1314789]

Later: Having reviewed the comments and had a think about it, it really isn't going to cost me anything except time to try Ubuntu first; I'll still need the external drive (I've already ordered a little kit for that) but the Ubuntu download is free. I might as well give it a try before I commit to Windows.

Comments

[houses7177.livejournal.com]

I have SuSe linux at work because I had to. And I hate it. If I can, I'm going to convert to Mac, even if it's not supported, because I hate Linux that much. It's made of stupid, SuSe is, that or hateful confusion. I liked Unix, it made sense. SuSe is like Unix on a bad bender with shrooms.

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

What do you mean you liked "Unix" but not SuSe?

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

I'm not houses7177, but I also strongly prefer Unix to Linux.

Linux started out as a new Unix variant. Some time around the year 2000, they started moving away from that. Why, I've never been able to figure out, although big parts of it seem to be NIH syndrome and a near-complete lack of awareness of what's come before. Take for example their throwing out of the command ifconfig and inventing a new one to take it's place. There is no point to this. ifconfig was already one of those commands where you needed to read the man page for every Unix variant, but now on Linux you don't even know which man page to read. Which adds frustration without adding any advantage at all. Multiply that principle by about a thousand times, and trying to use Linux as if it was a Unix becomes a sort of frustration of a thousand cuts. It just sucks.

The most succint phrasing I've seen is that Linux is for people who hate Windows, not for people who like Unix.

[houses7177.livejournal.com]

The unix operating system that ran on the Sun Microsystem computers was easier for me to use than the Linux SuSE operating system I have installed now.

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

> Does Marcus need to learn Linux

That isnt really a question that we can answer. It is like asking whether you need to learn French, or how to drive. If you are going to live in France, or out in the countryside it is probably a good idea to learn those things.

It doesnt sound like you need to learn Linux? But it is best learnt while you have some use for Linux, but dont *need* it.

[saranjeuhal.livejournal.com]

If you do end up going the XP route, download SP3 and then install via USB.

[ckd]

Ubuntu works pretty well on my work machines (including the ThinkPad), but I don't know how well it goes on the MiniNote.

(Also, I've been getting paid to wrangle computers for way too many years to have any kind of useful opinion on how well it'd work for any given person.)

[autopope.livejournal.com]

There's a MiniNote-tailored distro called minBuntu that includes all the necessary driver support. The only anomaly is that for some reason the developer didn't think OpenOffice was necessary, so you need to install that afterwards (via Synaptic).

WARNING: I hauled my local Windows guru in to get XP up and running on a MiniNote that shipped with SuSE. It took him two days of swearing. It can be done, but it's not a trivial matter -- it's actually a lot harder than installing Ubuntu and getting that working. (HP stuck the Windows ACPI drivers inside the keyboard drivers or something stupid, so the machine kept hanging at random every few minutes until we figured out we needed to install something seemingly irrelevant. The MiniNote is not an Intel machine and is somewhat non-standard internally ...)

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

There's a long history of the keyboard controller of PCs doing non-obvious things - in the early PCs it had some sort of timing function, so if your keyboard was on the blink it could easily take down the whole PC. Doesn't surprise me that the keyboard software does weird things too.

[pengshui-master.livejournal.com]

Istr, it was memory access related, the A20 line. This http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/A20_Line seems to explain it - but it is a hardware thing so common to all OS on the platform.

I see the biggest advantage that a debian based distro will give you is better support from you flist who seem to know debian (true in my case, and I also I think autopope's, and possibly a few others).

Debian stable has a reputation for having older versions of the software but that is less true of Debian unstable and Ubuntu. And there is a service over at backports.org which allows installation of later packages into debian-stable.

Autopope's cautionary tale on windows installation is worth bearing in mind - I do a lot of windows installations at work and it's normally straightforward - but you need access to the drivers - recently (last 5 years or so) I've begun to find getting drivers for linux actually easier than drivers for windows.
My own laptop was a recent execption when the audio drivers where suffering from a bug - but I got it fixed in about a week spent in collaboration with the alsa team (eg the drivers authors).

I've also been finding support via IIRC (freenode #debian/#ubuntu - for OS issues, and other channels for more specifics.) a extremely useful resource - often you get an answer straight away from the original developers.

I've also been playing with a Acer one - with the Linux build for work recently (it seems to be FC8 based) and I have to say I'm coming the the conclusions that I'm not a fan of manufacturer tweak distros. The acer one is OK, but subtly different in a few places.

You may find a vanilla Ubuntu install a) Is closer to you want out of the box , b) responds more like what your advisors (here, and elsewhere will expect) . Also it will more more likely than advice in a good book on ubuntu will be applicable to your specific system.

Whether you should change to Windows though has to be your choice, I think that power users of windows have the harder time changing over than those who consider themselves less computer-literate. I think you got of to a bad start with the mini-note - personally once you get your head around linux I suspect you'll like it.

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Apart from familiarity XP wouldn't be my first choice - I use it a fair bit and I know its limitations - so if I can get it up and running properly with Ubuntu I will probably stick to it.

[draconin.livejournal.com]

I just installed Win XP on a laptop and only had Service Pack 2. As soon as I connected to the internet I just used Win Update to install SP3 (had to revisit 3 or 4 times before it finally stopped rec'ing updates). Can you not do that for SP1 or does Update not go back that far?

[ggreig]

I believe not. SP2 is regarded as a sort of bare minimum for anything these days, because it's the version when they started geting serious about improving security.

[nelc.livejournal.com]

As a Macintosh user, I don't have a horse in this race. Much as I dislike Windows (I use it occasionally), I think it would at least have the advantage of familiarity for you.

[vicarage.livejournal.com]

Given your reaction to Linux, and your XP skills, I think you should spend the £60 to switch to XP and take the hassle out of your life

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

Ubuntu is indeed less awful than other Linuxes. If time is a less scarce resource than money, it may be worth it giving it a shot before you go ahead and buy Windows.

[raygungothic.livejournal.com]

I've had limited experience with SUSE, but it seemed to be oriented more towards people who are already quite familiar with Linux-land or are very technical and dedicated. Ubuntu is very nearly a consumer OS; it doesn't *quite* "just work" every time, but pretty close, and the interface is quite polished out of the box. I'm very happy with it.

I think Linux has a huge advantage over Windows for portables, which is that you don't need to spend as much time downloading security and antivirus patches *every single day*, so it's easier to get by on scarce mobile bandwidth or hastily borrowed bits of low-strength wifi. Multiple virtual desktops also make small screens a bit more bearable. Also, the mass of pretty capable free apps means you can save expensive licenses for your big home desktop that's easier to work on for large projects, but still open and tweak most of the resulting files on the fly for nothing.

Also, I reckon it's worth using 3 OSs on a regular basis so you don't get stuck in the ways of any one of them. It works for me.

[pogodragon.livejournal.com]

I'm not a geek, but I do live with one, so this is all second-hand information.

I've had an HP2133 for a few weeks now and love it, with the SuSE 10 Enterprise stuff that comes with it, but, it took a full 48+ hours of my uber-geek other half fiddling with it to get SuSE to play nicely. From what I can tell the version of Linux that comes with the box is more than slightly buggered. Other Half sorted it out with fixes that included installing a file that he got from a man that originally worked on the system.

Ubuntu does seem to be a better Linux, but Googling for that in connection with the the 2133 also suggests problems.

Now it's working I love it, but I'm certain I couldn't have got it to this state on my own and I wouldn't want to try anything very clever without a geek within arm's reach. Were it me I'd have given up Very Soon and headed back to Windows.

[ggreig]

I didn't vote for an operating system because I think whichever direction you choose is going to have pain, and I'm not qualified to say which will be least.

I'm in broad agreement with your thoughts on Ubuntu, but suspect even XP may be difficult, as autopope suggests. The hardware may be a bit exotic from the point of view of a seven-year-old operating system.

[stephenbooth-uk.livejournal.com]

Ubuntu (and Debian, on which Ubuntu is based) is fine, so long as you are running absolutely vanilla hardware and software. As soon as you try to put anything clever on,in or near your PC you'll spend more time fighting the OS to let you do it than using the PC. Ubuntu also suffers from the philosophy of Debian. Debian only allows a new function or driver (what makes your hardware work) in after it's been around for a while and most of the bugs have been knocked out. Great for stability but it does mean it serious lags the rest of the world for support for new devices and functionality.

A distro like Slackware will give you much more control, so you won't be fighting the OS no matter what you do. this does mean that you'll have to get really intot he nuts and bolts of the OS as there's no hand holding at all.

SuSE(and RedHat for that matter) are a reasonable compromise between hand holding and not getting in the way. In my experience, the configuration tools on RedHat suck majorly so I'd go with SuSE which has pretty good configuration tools.

[chuk-g.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to think that Linux was written by Timelords or something

Not Timelords. Torvalds.